The Social Media Takeaway - Louise McDonnell

Charging Based on Your Expertise Not Your Time

• Louise McDonnell • Season 1 • Episode 14

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In this episode of the social media takeaway, I'm thrilled to sit down with Dr. Jo Cresswell, a sales strategist and business coach with over 20 years of experience in senior leadership and sales. Dr. Jo is an expert in strategically shaping the pricing and value propositions for social media and coaching services. In this episode, we dive deep into the complexities of setting the right price and ensuring your services clearly communicate their value.

What You’ll Learn:

  • Strategies for Long-term Value: Discover how to think beyond immediate financial gains to focus on what your services truly offer your clients.
  • Common Pricing Challenges: We discuss common pitfalls in pricing and offer structuring, and how to avoid them to improve your business.
  • Insights on Pricing Your Services: Dr. Jo shares her approach to pricing—how to set a rate that not only reflects your worth but also sits well with you emotionally.
  • Enhancing Value Perception: Learn techniques to enhance how clients perceive the value of your services, which can help justify higher rates.

Whether you're just starting out or looking to refine your approach, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you elevate your consulting or coaching business. Join us as we uncover the keys to effectively constructing and pricing your offerings to maximize your impact and success. 

More about Dr. Jo:
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Don’t forget to email Dr. Jo to get your own worksheet for the 5 Why’s: jo@joannecresswell.co.uk

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Louise McDonnell:

Welcome to the social media takeaway. I'm your host Louise McDonnell and today I'm speaking with sales strategist and business coach, Dr. Jo Cresswell. So if you want to learn how to charge more for your services, you got to tune in. Dr. Jo has more than 20 years experience in senior leadership and sales roles as a director of a UK university, dr. Jo was instrumental in creating more than 2. 5 million pounds per year in additional research revenue. She now works with successful coaches and consultants to help them make more money while working less. Gosh, that sounds fantastic. Who wouldn't want to make more money while spending less time working? You're very welcome to the show.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited to be here.

Louise McDonnell:

So do you want to tell us a little bit about your story? How you came to this moment where you're now a sales strategist, a business coach?

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Yes. Yeah. Cause I say this actually wasn't a planned move. So way, way back when all I wanted to do was research, you know, right at the start of my career. So that's when I ended up doing a PhD. And by the end of that, I kind of realized that. I really didn't want to do that. I couldn't see myself studying the same thing for the next 40 years. It was just boring to me. You know, I think what I, I just liked the variety and change. So after a sort of few years in the wilderness, I ended up in what was the perfect job for me, which was involved in research, but not actually having to do it myself. So I got into research management and, and was working with some incredible researchers. They were actually looking at cancer research and sort of through that, I think was my sort of first learning how to sell without selling, you know, non sale selling, although I never realized it at the time. So my job was really to help the researchers to, you know, get more money, get more, get more research income, how to talk about that in a way that resonated with the people with the money. And also how to connect with the users of the research, you know, what they cared about. So that was, that was brilliant. And really that was me for the next 18 years. You know, I kind of went up and up in, in levels. you know, for a long time, I loved it. You know, because I was doing exactly what I sort of said to you, I was working with all sorts of different people, you know, I was working with people who were looking at, you know, health research, cyber security, how we design our towns and cities to create less crime. So, you know, I was dealing with people in all, all the different disciplines. And as I sort of rose higher in the organization. A lot of what I was doing was leading through influence I was sort of building a lot of strategies. Again, I was helping people sell research at the sort of multi million dollar level. And really a lot of what I was doing was how to get buy in from and in my case, it was the researchers. So I was sort of in more of an admin role and I was sort of working with, with these amazing researchers and traditionally those two types of roles didn't really get on admin, admin and research didn't go on.

Louise McDonnell:

I've even come across researchers where I was doing some training and at the end of the training, one of the researchers said, but like, why would I use social media? And I was like, but do you not need to get funding? And do you not need to use your research? And, you know, and so then it suddenly occurred to me that the researchers know how to research, but they might not necessarily be worried about the rest of you know, funding it or finding new projects.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

And getting them to talk about it in a way that kind of resonates with the non expert because, you know, they know, because they know it so well. And I'm, I'm sure you sort of resonate with this on the business side because they know it so well and they know how great it is. What they tend to do is sort of launch into the technicalities. And my, probably my biggest skill then and now is actually not being an expert. Cause I can kind of go. I kind of know how important it is, and the example I used to use was, was sort of if you're going to a funding body and your application is sat next to somebody researching cancer in children, you know, you have to communicate why what you're doing is really important. we'll probably come to that a little bit later is how we do that. But so for me, it was all about, you know, taking this amazing stuff and helping people communicate it, helping people sort of step slightly outside of their, little research bubble. And, you know, communicate it to the world, to the people who could benefit from it.

Louise McDonnell:

Very good, very good. Yeah, because I suppose when somebody is an expert, that level of an expert, like when they're leading, you know, when their world's leading, they're breaking into new frontiers. They probably have forgotten what the potential customer who maybe is the funder doesn't know. Speaking the same language, I would imagine is a massive, a massive.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Really is. And we still have to bring them back down to the level of us mortal human beings.

Louise McDonnell:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're right. We all do that in business too, because we're all experts in our field. So how did you come then to start working with coaches and consultants, like from away from the researchers and more into the business coaching?

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Yeah. So it, it sort of came about by accident really. So I was the higher I rose in the organization the less I was doing the stuff I loved. So, you know, I got into senior leadership and I was doing, you know, budgets and politics really not my thing. So I decided I sort of was burning out. So I decided to take a break and they had a great kind of voluntary severance program. So I said, okay, I'll do that. Had a bit of a break and then fully intended to go back into a similar role. I had three jobs all lined up. Got shortlisted for all of them, headhunted for them and thought, great, marvelous, sorted. And then, so that was January, 2020. January, February, 2020, and obviously in March when the whole world just shut down, all of those jobs went away. So I'm sat there sort of going, wow, I just made myself probably unemployable at the beginning of a global pandemic. So you know, in, in some respects, the lockdowns were very helpful for me and the weather was great. So I, I just sort of spent lots of time in my garden, just thinking decided to do a coaching diploma. Cause I thought, Oh, you know, I'm a bit bored. I'll, I'll do some training in the meantime. I realized that actually the coaching side was what I'd loved. That was the thread throughout my whole career. You know, I was working with people, coaching people, helping them achieve what I could see they could achieve and maybe they didn't. And then just sort of my niche, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners are the same. my niche just evolved. I started working with a, with a new business coach who, who was more focused on sales, and that's when I sort of connected when, Oh, I've been doing this for years, you know perhaps not in the way and sort of I do now, but all of the principles, all of the techniques I've been doing for years, and I'd actually had really, really good results doing and that realization, I think of kind of just owning the impact I'd had that just flipped everything for me. And so really since then, that was about a year, a bit over a year ago. Since then, I've just been evolving more and more niching down into sort of really how I work with people. And that's how I got into these sort of, okay, how do we almost, how can we increase what we earn without having to make massive changes in what we do? You know, it's about how we talk about it and package it and see it. And yeah, so how can I help, you know, it always comes back to, well, how can I help somebody earn more from what kind of what they're already doing?

Louise McDonnell:

Yeah, because I think, like, I've worked with lots and lots of businesses down through the years in my own business. one of the common problems that I see is that, you know, when somebody is working for somebody else and they have a price list that they're using to charge, they don't blink an eyelid, there's no issue. But then all of a sudden, when, again, it becomes their own business And they haven't been used to pricing or putting pricing around their services. And then all of a sudden they're falling into the trap, like they're pricing for their time and, and they're nearly, they don't have the confidence even to put the prices out there. Like I remember myself, hands up, when I started my own business back in the day, And I used to be, you know, again, I was exactly that person because I could, I could recognize it then in other people. But I remember at the beginning, I was like, I couldn't physically get the words out of my mouth of what I wanted to charge somebody. They just wouldn't come from, from the back of my throat out. So in the end of what I used to do is I'll say, I'll email you the price. Cause I, it's the only way I could do it. Cause I couldn't physically say it. So I know it's a common problem. So is that something that you encountered that people just don't even understand how to value or how to price their services?

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Absolutely. And I, that was me. Yeah. You know, again, way back at the start of my journey, I was kind of like, I can't charge that, you know, and I think, I think one of the big things and I see this so much, so one is, is definitely sort of people pricing by the hour and the challenge is, we come from the perspective of how much we think an hour of our time is worth. And overlaid on that is a whole load of money mindset stuff, you know, probably from our parents, our grandparents, you know, all the people around us. So we, yeah, we sort of get stuck in that. you know, how much am I worth? How much an hour of my time worth? And we tend to under, undervalue that. And the thing I always sort of say to people is actually how much an hour of, Our time, whoever's listening here, that's almost the least relevant part of our pricing. Because it's not really about us. You know, it's about how much is our, are our services worth to the people we're working with? You know, how much value do they get out of it? And so coming back to the hourly side of things and this, this is something I've Practically everybody I speak to, you know, I've had this conversation with about five or six people, you know, very recently and they're charging by the hour. So one of the examples I use is, you know, so thinking about, you know, your services, the value of your services and your experience Louise, is that you know, you now doing what you do, your team and everything, you're really, really good and you do it really quickly. You know, you can create these amazing things really, really quickly. And if you're charging by the hour, that means you'll do a really quick job really well. And actually you'll only get paid a small amount. Now along I come and I am nowhere near as good as you at what you're doing. It's going to take me, you know, it might take you a day. It's going to take me three days. And actually it's not going to be as good. Doesn't really seem fair that if we're charging by the hour, I'm going to get three times as much as you. And it, you know, that's, that's the thing I sort of, you know, when I kind of explain this to people in that way, they say, oh wow, okay. Because what people are really buying, it's not that hour. It's the 10, 20, 30 years you've put in to be able to do it in an hour. And the other, the other example I use is. You know, back in the day when we used to have film photos before smartphones, before digital cameras, we used to take pictures on film and take them to the shop to get developed. Now you could get them back in a week for say five pounds, or you could get them back in an hour for 10 pounds. So that, that, that for me is that reframing You know, cause when, whenever, if we're charging by the hour, the better we get, the more we're almost taxing ourselves

Louise McDonnell:

and

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

disadvantaging ourselves. So that for me probably is, is the one thing I'm sort of the most, the first thing we start with.

Louise McDonnell:

Yeah. Not charging by the hour. Don't charge by the hour. If you're charging by the hour, you need to, you need to have a conversation with Dr. Jo. You need to rethink what you're doing. So biggest problems. Charging by the hour, second, anything else then?

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

I think the second one then is again, still focusing on what we do, you know, on the details and features of our services. And I've done it. Oh gosh, you know, When I look back, I think, Oh God, did I do, but you know, again, a lot of people will launch into, well, here's what I do. And we do this and we do this and we do this. And actually that's not really what our clients want or need to hear. And then my favorite story that I tell everybody is. The first millionaires in the California gold rush were not the prospectors. The first millionaires were not the prospectors. They were the merchants who sold the picks and shovels and the pants. Basically, they sold the tools. But they didn't sort of stand at the front of their store and go, Hey, look at my picks and my shovels. Look, they're shiny. I've got them in these different colors. You know, so they weren't really selling picks and shovels and they weren't even selling gold. They were selling the dream of the life that that gold would bring them. You know, the prosperity, the, the opportunities, the freedom from poverty. That's what they were selling. And so that again is just something to remember is, you know, when we start talking about our picks and shovels. Actually, let's talk about, you know, what, what we call is the benefit of the benefit. And my, my other favorite example from that same story is about how to drive traffic to your offer. One of the merchants ran down the main street shouting gold, gold in the river. And then sort of ran back to his shop and started doing his picks and shoves. So, so a talk about the benefit of the benefit and then really shout about it. And I think sort of, you know, one of the ways I've heard it described. You know, in perhaps a way that we can kind of resonate with outside the gold rush is, you know, somebody selling a hammer and a nail. And I've heard it say, actually, you're not buying the hammer and the nail, you're buying the hole in the wall. Actually, what you're buying is the pitch is the memories and the joy. When you look at the picture of your grandchildren or your children on the wall. So I think for all of us, it's kind of taking a step back from the detail of what we do. Taking a step back from the immediate, you know, so we're sort of selling a tangible benefit. It might be weight loss. It might be more sales. It might be an incredible digital marketing strategy in your case. So that's what we sort of focus on and that's kind of what they're buying from us. But what we also focus on is what that gives us.

Louise McDonnell:

I can totally resonate with that because one of the programs I signed up to myself towards the end of last year the person who was telling me the benefit, And when they said, Oh, you're going to get this, I said, Oh yeah, I'll buy it. I didn't even know the name of the program. And I didn't even know how many times you met. I didn't know. I actually didn't know the day of the week. I didn't know how long. I knew nothing about the nuts and bolts. I only knew what I was going to get at the end. And actually, I was, I was really happy myself. Somebody just finished my group coaching program and I asked her for a testimonial and she says, Louise, I don't even know the name of this. And I went, Great. Yeah, because obviously I was able to communicate to her what she get at the end of it. And that's all she cared about. She didn't hear that. What you want somebody to hear the goals or the lifestyle. And as you said, the nuts and the bolts are they're just they're incidental details.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Absolutely. And, what we're in danger of is if we start talking about the details, people will just switch off.

Louise McDonnell:

They do.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

I mean, I have the attention span of a gnat. And so as soon as somebody starts talking about the details, I'm kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. You know, I, tell me, tell me what I'm going to get, tell me why I should care. And that's, that's the big thing.

Louise McDonnell:

So you have a, you have a system to help people get beyond all those whys.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Yes. So it's something again, I've been using probably for 15 years, something like that. And it's really how to help us step outside of ourselves because, you know, we, we've been talking about this is, you know, I do this for people. My coach does it for me, you know, I, I have to hire a coach to do it for me, but it's how we step out. Of ourselves and how we sort of step into the shoes of our ideal client and how we kind of, how we can see what they see and almost, you know, think what they think and feel what they feel. And so the first question that I ask, and I've, I've done this, oh God, for everything I've done, whether it's sort of launching a strategy. or a change project or selling an offer. It's actually, why should my audience care? I, I, I care, but actually why should my, they don't, my audience don't really know anything about it. Why should they care about what it is I'm doing? So that's the first question. That's what helps us go, Oh, right. Okay. Hang on. Right. I'm going to put myself in their shoes. And then what I then do is ask the five why's. And it's why this? Why them? Why now? Why here? And why me? Why you? Essentially. And when we can do that, that really sort of, it makes us really think about sort of what, what we're doing and why anybody should care. And that's not in a negative way, it's actually a why should they care because it's so great. And so I can go through in a little bit of detail, each of those steps. So firstly, we start off with why this, and again, I've used, I use this with incredible researchers submitting multi million pound grants, doesn't matter whether you're a world leading research. Sometimes you still need somebody just to go, yeah, why should they care? So why this, why is this what you do? The most important problem for them to solve. You know, why, why is what you're doing going to be groundbreaking for them? Why should they care about this thing? And it was going to be different for everybody, but it's really that, and we're coming back to that transformation, that benefit of the benefit, and the more we can talk about it from their perspective. The more they're going to connect and go, Oh, wow. Yeah. This is a, this is something, yeah, that I do really want to want to solve. So then we get to why them, so why, why, why that person, and you can use this at the level of designing your offers to, you know, preparing for a sales call. Why them why is your offer, you know, uniquely designed for them? Why is it designed so that that person can get the maximum benefit from it? you've, you've tailored it after conversations with people just like them, you know, you've got many years of experience working with people just like them, because one of the big objections that often comes up is that all sounds great, but I don't see how it can work for me. So we help them believe in themselves why are they ideally suited for this offer? Why is this offer ideally suited for them? And in that way, so we've sort of got them, got them connected to why this is a important thing, a transformational thing. And then we've also got, got them connect, starting to believe that, okay, yeah, maybe, maybe I can create this change. Then we look at why now, and yes, we use sort of scarcity in our selling in terms of yes, I've got a special offer, but that actually is sort of, we need more than that. So we need again to connect with them and go, well, why, why is now the ideal opportunity for them where they are in their life? where they want to get to. The opportunities they have, their situation, their, I don't level of commitment, whatever, but it's connecting with why now actually is a brilliant time to do this because again, you know, we all know one of the, one of the objections is, Hmm, yeah, not sure if now's the right time. Let me think about it. you know, if we genuinely believe and we can see and help them see that actually, yeah, now like take that leap of faith, do it now and then we get to why here now, when I was selling research, it was a bit easier because it was kind of why here in this university or whatever, but it's still, you know, we want to look at why here. Why. This offer, the way we've designed it, why one to one or group or done for you or done with you services, why face to face, online, blended, whatever, but why is sort of here in this community, in this environment, why is that designed to help them get the best results? And it's going to be different for different people, but it's very much, it's sort of, so again, it's how we've designed this. We've not sort of design it for our convenience. We've designed it in a way that is going to maximize the results that they can get. So again, we've sort of, yeah, they bought this, they're bought into the problem. They're believing they can do it. They're kind of fired up and going, okay, yeah, maybe now, maybe now's the thing. And wow. Okay. I see that actually this way. Maybe, maybe this is the new opportunity I might have failed before, but the way you're doing it is different. Okay, I'm saying that. Okay, so I'm, I'm nearly there. And then we think about, well, why, why you, you know, why us as the people selling the offer. And again, we sort of can fall into the, here's my list of qualifications. Here's my list of experience. And again, people, they're not that fussed about qualifications. When I spent a terrifying amount of money with my, my current coach, a bit like you had no idea how it was going to work. Didn't really know much. I just, I just knew. it was, it was our option. So part of it is, is, is the passion as well. And this is, this is particularly what served me in my career was being, when somebody is passionate about something we are passionate about, that creates a really powerful connection. So when somebody is passionate about serving and giving value and helping you and helping you create. You know, that dream of the life, the gold's going to bring you that then becomes irresistible. So it's not about me. It's not about making the sale. Cause that's what I want. It's about what you want. And then I'm passionate about you, what you want, and I'm really committed to helping you get what you want. And I designed this in such a way that it will maximize your chances of getting what you want, even if you've struggled in the past. And so when we can put all of those things together, hopefully you can sort of see that Actually, that's quite potent and it, it does help us come out of ourselves and really put us into the shoes of our ideal clients.

Louise McDonnell:

I always say like that, people don't care about you, they only care about themselves.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Yeah. And that, that's the secret to selling. It's not about you. It's about them.

Louise McDonnell:

It's about them. So even when you're writing your, your content on your social media or on your website, or even, even the summary on your LinkedIn profile, it's not a summary about you, it's about a summary about what you can do. For that person that you want to attract.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Yeah. And there is actually, I do have a sneaky sixth why, which is why not? So that's always the one at the end of that process. If we just check in and go, why wouldn't they want to do that? And that just helps us get the objections out of the way. So it's actually, it's actually the six whys, but it's the five whys with a bonus.

Louise McDonnell:

I love the why not, yeah, or then sometimes asking the question to say, have you found yourself at the exact same stage? You know, have you found like that you said this is going to be the year and now we're into the fourth or fifth month, but you're still, you haven't moved any further. And I think that sometimes it can be a powerful message as well, because I know that makes me happy. Go, all right, that's it. I'm going to do something. And I think a strong message, we were just having a chat before, before this interview is that you can't do it all yourself.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Absolutely.

Louise McDonnell:

You can't. And actually working on your own business, even if you're a sales coach, you should get a sales coach, you know, because working on your own business is probably the hardest thing.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, the, the number of times. You know, my coach has said things to me and I'm like, how did I not see that? I teach this. I can do it for the world and his wife. I cannot do it for my own business so much.

Louise McDonnell:

So is that the reason that pricing services is harder?

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

I think so. I think partly because I say we bring our own money mindset. I think the other side is also we can struggle to communicate. That value and that's something, you know, having done a bit of research with, with people you know, one of the frustrations is it's kind of like say, I know I've got a great thing, but people just aren't buying into it. You know, I can see they need it, but people aren't buying into it. So I think it is really just that sort of how we can communicate that value. You know, again, money is the easiest thing to sell. You know, it's the easiest thing to sell and those tangible benefits are the easiest things to sell. But actually the most meaningful things are those transformations, the mindset, the identity, those sort of things. So it's just thinking about. You know, as we, as we are going to put up our prices is also just think about, well, how do we communicate that? Because 1 of the. You know, almost coming back to the slightly the hourly pricing, but, you know, I've, I've spoken to people again, very recently who they're badging their services in a way in which sort of almost devalues them. So somebody says, I'm going to clean up your CRM and somebody else kind of goes, well, actually I can get somebody in Fiverr to do that for 30 an hour, something like that. When actually, if we dig into what they're doing, and this is, this is the really fun bit that I love doing with people. It's like, well, actually, what are you really doing? Are you cleaning up the CRM? You know, and when we dig, when I dig into what people are doing and the, the results they've helped achieve, we kind of go That's kind of not what you're doing, really, is it? You are transforming their whole sales process or you are completely, you know, thinking about what you do, you know, you're not just writing some social media posts. You are creating a powerful brand identity reputation as a thought leader. Now I might pay you. You know, 30 an hour to write me a post. I'm going to pay you an awful lot more for establishing me as a thought leader and creating a ton of sales. So that's the other thing is just how we package and badge. So, you know, as I said at the beginning, it's. I'm not necessarily advocating that you have to change your whole business model and change what you're doing. Now you can, but sometimes just repackaging, changing how we badge things means we can, we then have the power to sort of raise prices because we're communicating the true value.

Louise McDonnell:

Okay. So it's the value. It's the outcome we're selling, always the outcome. How would, how does somebody know? Somebody tune in, somebody listening here. How do they know if they're not charging enough?

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Oh, oh, very good question. I mean, I think if you're working 40 hours a week and you're still not getting by that's one very big example. You know, if you, if you're starting to, you know, if you're just overwhelmed and burned out, I think if people snap up your offers. You know, somebody I was you know, a client I worked with a little while ago, it was great getting great signup rates, but was getting burned out, you know, why, why can't I earn enough? So I think if people are snapping up your offers straight off, I think then there's a sign that you're very, you're very reasonably priced. Mm.

Louise McDonnell:

I, I love the bit you say about burnout, because again, I would come across people and like, they're working so hard and I, and I would say to them, you're gonna get to the point where you're fed up working so hard and not having any reward because you're not, you, you're not charging enough. Yeah. So you're right.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

And I think taking, you know, taking that step back and sort of really looking at. am I selling my experience? Am I selling my time or am I selling my experience? And I think so many people get trapped in the time. So again, I would sort of say to anybody, and actually, to be honest, even if you think you're charging enough, even if you're not working 40 hours a week and you're really burned out, it's always good to take that step back and kind of go, actually, what? Am I really charging what this is worth? And I've, I've been on this journey. You know, I, I quoted somebody what I thought was a really, oh yeah, that's my, that was my biggest ever contract. My blinking coach sort of says to me, why so low? So, you know, and people I'm working with, you know, I'm saying, well, why so low? And so it's a journey for all of us. I remember there was a I think it's Denise Duffield Thomas, she's a great money mindset person. And I think she said, do a thought exercise, just keep doubling your prices or keep raising your prices until the point you feel sick. And then go to the one before you feel sick and try that.

Louise McDonnell:

Here's another question for you. How do you know when you're charging too much? So if let's say you put out five proposals, how do you know you're charging too much?

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

That's a difficult one. Are you charging too much or are you not describing the value well enough? Oh, yes. That's the thing. So I think, yeah, if you're not getting any hits, if you're putting out the proposals and you're not, you're not getting any hits. You'd need to go back to the drawing board, but it's not necessarily price. So I think this is a challenge some people do is go, I have to, I have to learn my prices, but actually have we done the five why's that we really understand what the client wants and needs. Are we, are we just selling our thing and they kind of go, well, that's not what I want, you know, are we describing it in a way, in the right way? So I think that's the thing is sort of, we can often assume it's price and sometimes it might be. The other thing I would say is actually, if your client base is saying your service is too expensive, you might want to think about moving up a level in your client base. You know, so I think that it's probably slightly easier to tell how you're, if you're charging too little. I think charging too much is a much more nuanced question.

Louise McDonnell:

Yeah. You're right. And actually the whole thing about, are you describing what you, what you offer well enough? I've had the experience in our agency, so we have an agency as well. We were working with a client in about two or three weeks into working with them. I came off the call, I went, they are so delighted, like they were so delighted. And actually the question I asked myself is, did they not understand what we said we were going to do? Cause now we're just doing what we said we would do, but it's like when they experienced what we said we would do, they were like, this is great. But they didn't come in any thinking, this is going to be great. I know they signed up, but I just felt, I felt it from them. And I, it's a question I said, I need to, I need to look at how I describe what we do because they, they didn't, they didn't quite get it, you know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, that could be affecting other, other proposals you're putting out there. Somebody else said to me before, if every proposal that you put out there is being accepted, you're not charging enough.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

I think that's it. And then, then you find yourself just with so much work to do.

Louise McDonnell:

Yeah.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

And again, we're back to the, you're working 40 hours a week and you're not really bringing in the money.

Louise McDonnell:

Yeah. And then if somebody asks you to quote, you're going, Oh, I don't even want to go because I don't want that business.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Yeah, absolutely.

Louise McDonnell:

Okay. So somebody is putting together an offer again. Well, again, I know we've talked a little through the steps. So can you briefly kind of summarize the steps that they should go through when they're putting together that offer so that they are pricing it at the right, at the right level?

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Yeah. And it's interesting because I'm sort of working on an offer right now. So I'm doing exactly the same thing. I think it's looking at it's going back to the, back to the ideal client and looking at sort of really what are the outcomes you're giving them. So, yes, the tangible outcomes you know, they're coming to you to get something fixed usually. So, okay, well, I'm going to fix that thing, but actually. That's only worth a certain amount. It's then what fixing that thing will do for them. So I think when we're looking at creating any offer, whether it's a proposal or a program, whatever, is to really look at the outcomes with delivering people. I think it's looking at what's the best sort of modality to deliver it. You know, I think, you know, you and I both experienced programs where it's kind of get people into groups. And that's a, that's a great way to scale, you know, is that the right modality for you? Is that the best modality for the people? Are they going to have a better experience? And so you're always thinking about that, you know, what's the best, best way for them to learn? What's the most effective? Actually, how quickly can I do it? Does it need to be a six month program? And actually the way I very recently changed how I work. So I used to be kind of, yeah, let's get, we'll work together for six months. What I've discovered is more powerful now is I do really, really intensive Working, we'll, we'll work together for an afternoon and effectively kind of do three months is the power of three months coaching. So I've changed how I do it, but terrifying charging a high amount for that. Yeah, so I'm again, I'm working on that offer at the same time. So it's actually, does it need to be over a long period of time? Could you do the one hour photo? You know, that express model, would that be more valuable? I think really look at how much work it's going to be for you, because again, sometimes when we charge by the hour, yeah, there's a whole bunch of research we're having to do, or we're sort of thinking about the problem in the shower, whatever. And I believe lawyers can actually charge for that thinking in the shower time. We should all charge for thinking in the shower. Yeah, I think, I think there's a line item for, you know, for a lawyer.

Louise McDonnell:

So while I was running,

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

while I was running. Yeah. So we have to think about actually how much of my time and input is it going to, is going to take. And then always coming back to, I'm going to deliver it more quickly. Cause I've got 20 years experience doing it or 10 years experience. So I think all of those things. Go into thinking about how we construct the offer and how we price it probably what I would say is run it by a business coach, somebody like you, somebody like, you know, I've got a coach. I do everything through my coach. So I do think to some extent, you're getting an objective eye. If we ask our contemporaries, our peers, what we're probably going to get is all of their mindset issues as well as ours. And I've done this. I've asked people. And in fact, this is my favorite story. My first ever client, I didn't know what to charge. I'd only just launched my business and somebody said, Oh, can we have a conversation? I'm like, no. And so I asked, I asked a friend of mine, I said, well, what do you charge for coaching package And she said at this amount, so I'm like, Oh, right. Oh, okay. Somebody charges that amount. That's okay. Quoted that amount to the person. She was like, yep. Okay. Sign up. What I later found out. So that was for my three month program. My friend had done told me that price for her six month program. But she told me a number and I was like, okay, it's, I'm, I'm allowed to charge that number. So I think

Louise McDonnell:

you were confidently able to say that

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

I was confidently able to say that. So I think we can ask our sort of peers and contemporaries, but just be cautious about that. I think. Looking at what other people charge, again, still be cautious, but I think, you know, working with somebody like you, you know, my coach, whatever is just running it by, you know, running it by somebody with more expertise than somebody who can take that step back and really see the value of what you do.

Louise McDonnell:

Such good advice. Such good advice. So I suppose any, any final piece of advice you'll give Dr. Jo, even though this has been packed full, I've enjoyed every minute of this conversation because it's a fascinating subject. I think, and I'd love if people are tuning in I'd love to, you know, make sure you connect with us on social and let us know what you're thinking, because I actually think it's one of the biggest issues it's one of the biggest reasons that people go out of business is they don't charge enough. It's one of the biggest reasons that people are struggling in their business. And I think if you can get this right I think it's something that, you know, will ensure, you know, a happier, more contented, you know, life, you know, if you're, if you're getting rewarded for, for what you can do.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Absolutely. And I think the one, probably the one big thing, which is probably a counterintuitive thing is that we get a bit hung up on charging people and the whole, there's a whole sort of sleazy sales world out there that just makes us feel icky. and I, I was working with a sales coach and it was just kind of like, Oh, this is not what I want to do. I don't want to be selling like that, which is why I sort of came away and found my own method of selling. So there's a whole ickiness around sales. And we think that almost it's immoral to charge more. What I'm going to say is there's an energy. There's an energy to money and I've experienced it again towards the end of last year. I invested a terrifying amount of money at the time in a coach, but you know what? It made me show up at a completely new level, you know, because I mean, I, I put a lot on the line. It was, it was, it was. Very, very sort of squeaky for me in that investment. Now I knew, a bit like you, I had no idea when we'd meet, how it would work, whatever, no idea, but I was kind of like, I just knew this was one of those opportunities that never comes along. So I had to do it. But my God, do I show up at a different level? So that's one thing is. Charging more, raising your prices. And I'm not saying sort of immorally charging more. I'm simply saying charging what you're worth. It's an invitation to those clients to invest in themselves. They're not investing in you. They're investing in themselves. And that is a massive vote of confidence. If you invest more and you will show up, you know, people don't value what they don't pay for. So that is the one thing is you, you know, reframe it. You might be doing somebody a favor. I'm raising your prices because you are inviting them to show up at a level they never imagined they could.

Louise McDonnell:

This is so true. Yeah. I actually remember signing up to a program a few years ago. It was how to write your own book in eight, 10 weeks or something like that. It's years and years ago. It's a stage. And like that, it was a huge investment for me at the time. Like I was like, Oh my goodness, I'm really going to do this. But by goodness. I didn't miss a thing. I did all the homework. Like I might've been getting up at six that morning to get the homework done before I met, before I met my coach, but, but because I had made that investment, you're so right. Like sometimes people need to make the investments and then I got, I wrote the book, I did it, you know? So she, like she promised me an outcome, which I achieved, you know, and then not only did I write the book, but I then knew how to put together the next book and the next book.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

And that's the thing. You, you know, you make that one investment. That you can then leverage forever, you know, so that's the other thing is also, you know, when somebody is working with you again, it is not that hour they spend with you or the hour you work on them, you know, on their, in their work, it is. You know, then what they do with it forever and ever and ever afterwards. You know, if you're a career coach, you help somebody get a promotion. It might be 10, 000 a year for that. And then the next promotion. So, you know, I think it's really, really, really, you know, just to say it's never about how much we're worth. Yes, we show up and we always over deliver. you know, we do our very best, but again, you know, when I charge more, it makes me show up at a whole new level. They show up at a whole new level. So fantastic energy. So yeah, that would be my, my thing is actually, you might be doing somebody a favor.

Louise McDonnell:

I'm actually, somebody else said to me before, some people won't even notice you until you're charging enough. Absolutely. They'll say things like, where have you been? And you're like, I just wasn't charging enough, but I'm here now.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

I've, I've had people, somebody who was independently wealthy who said, you know, I was charging quite a low amount at that time, who said, well, it's way too much. And then I had somebody in one of my group programs who she was living paycheck to paycheck and she put the money on the line and she invested. And she actually ended up getting a brilliant job, I don't know, 40 percent more than she was earning before. So there's going to, if you charge 10 pounds, 10, 10 euros, somebody's going to go, that's too much. You could charge 10, 000 pounds. I know some, I know there's a, there's a coach out there that charges 40, 000 an hour. And people, people pay it. So, you know, you, you could then charge 10, 000 pounds and somebody's going to go, Oh, that's too low. You're not serious. So like raise your price until you feel sick. Take it down one, give that one a go. Provided you are, you know, you're delivering really good value.

Louise McDonnell:

Exactly. I suppose you have to promise an outcome for someone, and then they have to believe that you can deliver it.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

Yes, and I think the challenges with some aspects with particular coaching, it's not, it's not in my gift to get you that outcome because you have to show up and do the work, you know, I'm having to do it with my coach. If you do the work, these are the outcomes you'll get, you know, look, here's my testimonials. Here's, here's what I've helped people do, but yes it really is, you know, you show up at your highest level, them at theirs and just watch the magic happen.

Louise McDonnell:

Fantastic. Dr. Jo, how can people find out more from you

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

excellent question. So if you email me and hopefully that will be in the show notes, but you can get me at Dr. Jo@joannecresswell.co.Uk and that's cresswell with a s. And if you email me, I will send you a very nice little worksheet on the five why's. So how you can implement this in your business.

Louise McDonnell:

Fantastic. Look, we'll put everything in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on and giving us all that brilliant advice. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. It was lovely to chat to you.

Dr. Jo Cresswell:

It's been a joy. Thank you.

Louise McDonnell:

Thank you. Thanks for listening to the social media takeaway podcast. If you loved this episode and want deeper support with your marketing, head over to sell on social media. academy forward slash hello.